Episode 55 – Eduardo Diaz Rivera (Finance in Latin America)

This podcast audio has been transcribed by an automatic transcriber.

Fred Rocafort  0:07 

Global law and global business go hand in hand, but never seem to keep pace with each other. The importance on the global stage of developing and developed nations waxes and wanes, while consumption and interconnectedness steadily increase all the while laws and regulations change incessantly requiring businesses to stay nimble. But how do we make sense of it all? Welcome to global law and business hosted by Harris Sliwoski International Business attorneys. I’m Fred Rocafort.

 

Jonathan Bench  0:37 

and I’m Jonathan Bench. Every week, we take a targeted look at legal and economic developments in locales around the world as we try to decipher global trends in law and business with the help of international experts. We cover continents, countries, regimes, governance, finance, legal developments, and whatever is trending on Twitter. We cover the important, the seemingly unimportant, the relatively simple and the complex.

 

Fred Rocafort  1:02 

We hope you enjoy today’s podcast. Please connect with us on social media to comment and suggest future topics and guests.

 

Jonathan Bench  1:22 

Today we are joined by Eduardo Diaz Rivera. Eduardo has over 15 years of investment banking experience mostly focused in emerging markets and structured lending. He had stints with both UBS and Credit Suisse. He has originated structured, syndicated and closed more than us $1 billion in financings in Mexico and Central America, across multiple industries, including real estate, energy, infrastructure, telecom and construction. He is the founder of Alta Real Estate Fund. Eduardo, welcome to global law in business.

 

Eduardo Diaz Rivera  1:53 

Thank you much appreciated.

 

Fred Rocafort  1:55 

Eduardo, welcome to the podcast. What I’d like for this first question is to let you restate, but also perhaps expand a little bit on the brief bio that Jonathan just provided, tell us a little bit more about your career, perhaps you can add some some color to what we just learned, very interested, as always, in learning how our guests got to where they are today, because we do find that often, there are some very interesting twists that take them to where they are. So please feel free, don’t be modest, to tell us more about yourself.

 

Eduardo Diaz Rivera  2:32 

So I did a BA in economics, back in graduated back in 2005. If I’m not mistaken, and back then, to be honest, I mean, my, what I wanted to learn was about corporate finance, right. And as a surprise economics was in was very theoretic. So while completing my MBA, I started, you know, studying on my own about, you know, corporate finance self taught myself because while, you know, doing the VA, I didn’t have any of those classes. So, based on those, you know, personal studies that I did, I cried, took a part time job at a local broker dealer, right. And I started off doing equity research, which it means, you know, analyzing financial statements of public companies, this was based in Mexico, right? So, I was there until I graduated, it was like a year and a half or so. And then, based on that, you know, self learning experience and a part time job, I had, I guess, the good enough credentials to, you know, to look for a job in an investment banking firm and that’s how I joined UBS, which was back in mid 2005. And, and, you know, you you started as a trainee, and then you you start working up the ladder and learning and Indian Fortunately, I guess, I started learning about credit, which Indian, it’s important to understand credit, I believe, because it’s part of our day to day, right, you know, being a credit card, or, you know, being understanding how to use it or taking out a mortgage, etc. So, I started focusing on credit, and I call it structured credit, because these types of banks, they’re not that big retail commercial banks. So they have the type of credit that they can originate them and lend to two corporations. It’s quite strategic and highly structured in the sense that it’s, you know, it involves a lot of legal work, which, you know, and and it has a lot of tax implications and other variables that it’s important to structure it correctly. Otherwise, the outcome, so they’re so great. So, started working that growing up the ladder than I really enjoyed it because by actually lending to to this corporations, you’re actually, you know, helping them in a way, right, as long as it’s structured correctly. So I stay there, then I had the opportunity to change banks. And I continued down that process, I started doing some activity in Central America, which is a much smaller market than what the Mexico economy is. It’s been, what, more than 15 years since then. And along that path, I contemplated doing an MBA, studying specific finance or credit finance courses. But unfortunately, and I don’t know if I regret or not, they didn’t allocate the necessary time to do so. So I continued down my path. And I would say that while understanding the credit business in Mexico, I had a good understanding, I believe, of the overall fixed income environment in the world and the global markets. And so that’s how I started showing interest in the US cannabis market. And that was back in 2015 16. I started attending conferences and you know, trying to meet certain players within the industry, understanding how the industry was evolving and eventually led to, throughout the real estate fund.

 

Fred Rocafort  6:20 

Eduardo, I’d like to hone in on the specific issue of investment banking, this is a topic that is of interest to me, I think it’s of interest to Jonathan as well. And we do have opportunities to talk to guests who who have experience with this, but I’d like to ask you specifically about the investment banking world in Latin America, if in any way, does investment banking differ in Latin America from let’s say, the United States or Europe? And just more generally, what is that experience like? I’ve always been fascinated by by that world. So I’d like I’d like to hear some some thoughts on them that culture, I know that, in recent days, there’s been a little bit of controversy over some of the reports that are coming out regarding the work hours and the the work culture at some of these large banks. So love to hear your perspectives on that. But specifically, to what extent is there a Latin America flavor to investment banking in the region?

 

Eduardo Diaz Rivera  7:18 

I would say the main difference is the size of the markets, right? I mean, the US is, by far the largest economy in the world, it’s 20 times the size of Mexico. And you know, Mexico, I’ll get into the rest of Latin, but Mexico economy is around $1 trillion. Its GDP. So it’s one of the top 15 economies in terms of size. But the main differentiator with the US and Europe, it’s I mean, they’re much bigger economies, and they’re developed economies. Right. So emerging markets, I guess, they started to gain traction within the investment banking world in the 90s. First with Asia, and the race of you know, the Asian tigers, they call them Thailand, Vietnam, and those south eastern countries. And then you had Eastern Europe, which it’s led by Russia, which is mainly I mean, it’s a lot of energy related activity there. And then you have latam, and finally, Africa, right. So with respect to let them the biggest economy let them is Brazil, their main resources, energy. Brazil started gaining a lot of attention back again in the late 90s, because they discovered discovered oil fields, and they, they allow private capital into their state oil company, and private investment to that sector. So that generate a lot of opportunity for the investment banks. Right. While you need to learn how to navigate, you know, being in a developed economy, which means there’s a lack of rule of law, there are certain hurdles that you need to abide to, and maybe the do’s and not to do sorry, not as clear as in the US, for example. Right. So the second biggest economy is Mexico. And part of its, you know, I guess part of the attractiveness of Mexico is its its neighbor to the US, which again, it’s the largest economy in the world, by far. So makes Mexico translated from a closed economy to an open economy back in 94. When we signed NAFTA, what was NAFTA now there’s a new agreement in place, but in the end, it opened commercial relationships with the US and Canada making it a three country block, which is what I think of three biggest in the world, the biggest in terms of commercial activity. So that opened up, you know, the borders and then it started, started opening up the private sector and then obviously, investment banks appetite for companies that were starting to grow and needed capital of some sorts. So I would say I mean the activity of since the 90s. And then when I joined in the mid 2000s, until now has been continually increasing. It has seen every economic cycle or market cycle that has its ups and downs. Since then I would say we’ve had several crisis, I can highlight the 2008 2009 financial crisis, the existing COVID crisis, that’s we’ve been in it for more than a year now. But I would say, emerging markets are a key component for, you know, the big investment banks and are a part of their source of revenue generation, because these are emerging economies, right. So there are much more opportunities and growth that than within a developed economy in the sense, obviously, in the US, if you look at the transactional buy for investment banking activity called capital market, equity, capital markets, that capital markets, mergers and acquisitions, etc. It’s actually times bigger. But here, there’s also opportunities. In some countries, there’s less competition, because you need to understand the local market. Its true reality realities, it’s culture, I would say, and there are bands that are not willing to take that risk. So I would say, going back to latam, in general, there’s these two main economies. And then you have the rest Central America. That’s I mean, there’s, I think, five, seven countries within Central America, very small economies. But as a whole, it’s opportunistic, I would say there’s obviously the state owned companies, which are active in the international markets as well. And then you have the rest of South America, which is, you know, the Andean region, which is Chile, Peru, Ecuador, which are smaller economies, there’s a lot of energy related activity and of mining there. And then you have the, the Southern Cone, which is Uruguay, Paraguay, Argentina. And then I would leave, I guess, you know, Venezuela in another sort. But I guess, again, the main difference is obviously the term that it’s these are emerging economies, right? They’re not developed markets, nor nor, and, therefore they’re differentiating sites. But also, it’s leading with this country’s process of becoming hopefully a developed economy in their own, which implies having much more checks and balances, I would say, and that’s part of the challenge, but it’s also doing work.

 

Jonathan Bench  12:38 

So Eduardo, now that US, Canada, Mexico, Mexico have signed the US MCA, we have China becoming much more of a bipartisan issue within the US. What kind of opportunities do you see in Mexico and Latin? And are you kind of generally optimistic, pessimistic or somewhere in between, regarding Mexico’s economy, and opportunities for for collaboration across borders?

 

Eduardo Diaz Rivera  13:07 

Well, I mean, China has been in play for, you know, more than 20 years now, it became actually the number one if I’m not mistaken trading part of the US now I think Mexico has regained. I don’t know if it was number one, or number two, or it Mexico was now number one or number two, but China has taken a backseat, because, you know, of all the transportation costs and the actual internal growth China has seen, right, they’ve grown six 7% compounded annual rate for the past 1520 years. So China is definitely a major player, there’s a lot of interest on top three trading partners with the US. But also in Mexico, there’s a lot of Chinese investment coming our way. But in general, I mean, I would say, as I said at the beginning, the Mexican economy is large enough. But unfortunately, the political environment in Mexico and the rest of the Latin region is pretty challenged. Right? There’s been a wave. And there’s a reason for it. It’s not like, you know, out of the blue one time events, and it certainly happens. But there’s been a trend, a leftist populist trend in the region, which started with, you know, Venezuela and Uber Chavez back in 2004. found no mistake, you know, a little bit 2004 six, somewhere around there. And now you see how Venezuela is doing and now you have that tendency, which also, you know, it’s in Argentina, it’s in Bolivia. A, you know, then as well, of course, it’s in Nicaragua. And now in Mexico, we had a change of government in 2018 are the presidential terms are for six years and the existing administration is a populist left this one I would say so it’s definitely a populist not sure if I would be if it’s leftist or not, but it clearly has the stand. Since and that affects investor sentiment, if you don’t have trust in the checks and balances of each country where you’re going to deploy capital to then your decision to invest, I mean, you question it twice. And for Mexico where the past, I would say since 2017, to today, that trend has reverted from what had happened. And now the current administration has just damaged completely private investment. One example is the change in the electricity reform of the energy sector, oil and gas and power were the state controlled and run. And in 2013, there were, you know, energy reforms put in place, which were, you know, literally structural reforms and game changing for, you know, bringing in foreign capital into those industries and private capital and generating jobs and, you know, increasing it’s the overall growth of, of the economy. And now, this administration is reverting that and literally trying to, for example, change the constitution, which that I mean, that is a big issue. And it’s a big question mark on in the mind of investors who say, look, should I put the money to work in Mexico, or maybe I can look to other emerging markets, but in the end, it becomes a relative play, right? If you look at Mexico, you can compare to Brazil to Turkey, to South Africa, other emerging economies, and then you say, look, Where is it? Where is it? The How is the legal climate and the political climate there. So my investment is less volatile over the coming year. So I would say, pessimistic of what’s going on now. Overall, there’s a lack of appetite from the private sector and foreign investors to invest in the country, and you see it in the public figures. And it’s due to this, you know, unfortunate trend that’s happening. But I guess it’s part of the, if you look at the long view, go back 100 years, and then you look forward 100 years as part of what every economy has gone through. And it’s just, I guess, part of the process of becoming, hopefully, a mature and developed economy. Right. So for now, it’s it’s pretty pessimistic, and that’s why I guess, you know, Alta real estate is 100%, focusing and investing in the US

 

Fred Rocafort  17:36 

Eduardo, you bring up an excellent point, right? I’ve been studying Latin America in, in an let’s say, organized structured way, at least since 1997. I remember, I took a course in university that really provided me with a very good framework through which to analyze what was happening in the region. And it’s now been, what, more than 20 years, and it’s sad in a way really to see some of the, you know, as we say, you know, you know, robots and those who came up here that I, you know, we’re tripping over the same stone over and over. Just yesterday, I was reading in the news, how I think it was on the same day, or basically, let’s say that we were in the same week, Argentina, they withdrew from the Lima group that was looking at the Venezuela issue, basically, but by withdrawing from that group, you’re signaling their approval of what’s happening in Venezuela, under the Maduro regime. At the same time, the the vice president of the country, who was the former president, and widely seen as the most powerful figure in the country, announced that the country doesn’t have the money to pay, you know, what it knows? And then we wonder what Well, yeah, who’s going to want to invest in in that kind of climate? Right. You have, you have a basically a government saying, we think that what Venezuela is doing is great. And by the way, just in case you you have any doubts, we don’t have any any money to pay, shifting our direction a little bit. We’d like to hear your views on what’s happening in Mexico regarding cannabis, we know that a country’s making important strides in terms of legalization of cannabis. So perhaps you could give us an overview and also provide us with your thoughts on the process.

 

Eduardo Diaz Rivera  19:21 

Sure. The process started, it started. years back and back in 2017, I guess, and I haven’t been very involved. Again, our focus has been the US and the reason is lack of rule of law and you know, checks and balances. So and the overall market we we feel as altaira it’s that the opportunities are within the US economy and within the cannabis industry. But for Mexico, it started off back in the past administration back in 2017. When I think there were a couple of four or five, you know, high net worth into vigils which wanted to impose the legalization of cannabis, and what I mean, there’s a lot of reasons why but one of them that it’s not necessarily, the main reason, for example, in the US or Canada is here, we have a lot of problem with our, you know, with the drug cartels and which relate to insecurity, right. And cannabis is one of the products that these guys operate and work on. So one of the reasons of pushing cannabis legalization is, you know, it could be a good idea and how to control that and mediate the risks that these cartel activity brings on which I guess everyone’s aware of how that’s been, but started off in 2017. And these four or five or five high net worth individuals, they got injunctions from the government, and they were allowed, they were approved by the Supreme Court in the sense that on a personal basis, they were allowed to consume cannabis or with an X amount to grow it in their own house with obviously an X amount, etc. And that brought on a little, a little more of activity. And, you know, people wanted to, you know, a lot of lobbying and people getting involved in the legalization.

 

And there was a law passed in Congress, I believe, which set up some sort of framework of how the Medici now they wanted to only legalize that medicine and cannabis and think that framework was put in place. And there were some, you know, licenses granted, and it was going to be run by the Ministry of Health right here. And a lot of people started getting involved, but the change in administration was due. And obviously, this type of passing a cannabis legalization has political consequences, right. So what the original framework was, he got stalled. He got lost in, you know, that transition of the government, the new government, as far as part of its campaign said that they were going to legalize it. But the new government came in place more than two years ago, when the last framework was passed until now, nothing has happened. Again, these are these companies, companies that were granted licenses to distribute the CBD, for example, right, which I think was the main product allowed to do so under that bass framework. They were operating in some sort of gray area, right, which is not friendly for investors. Right. Now, this year, Congress and the Senate both passed the new cannabis reformed, which is much more robust in the sense that they want to legalize now we originally but occasionally, with certain limits, and I don’t know the specifics. And now, to be quite honest, there’s I see it as there’s at least two or three years, before anything happens, because all right, the law has been passed, but then how is it going to, you know, mechanically, and literally, how is the day today? of the industry gonna work? Who’s gonna regulate it? What are the legal, you know, frameworks? How is the licensing process going to work? What are the restrictions in terms of growing, you know, cultivation facility, how many dispensaries Can you do and make, I don’t know the details, but for me to put that framework into, into place and make a standard industry where you know, what the rules are, and the limits are, and therefore you can make a decision as to how much you will are willing to invest? And what the, you know, the opportunity is, I think it’s hard to say, and it’s still years from actually, you know, start to start gaining traction. It’s gained a lot of attention within the cannabis world, because it’s one of the few countries which is, you know, going federally both recreationally and medicinally. All at once. However, based on how the current administration works, it’s going to be a mess. That’s my two cents, right? So there’s gonna be a lot of lack disorganization, right? And again, that, that the rice that gives opportunity to the players who know how to manage the local climate, or the local political climate, that’s my guess. But for someone who maybe is used to operating under a different framework, it’s going to be hard. My view is it’s going to take a while before that the industry, you know, sexually set in Mexico, and then a big part of it is you know, you cannot export to the US because in the US you cannot import nor export cannabis, because it’s fairly illegal. So in terms of the size and the opportunity, right of the industry itself, I think it’s gonna take a while and Ghana, I guess it’s the size of California, right or smaller, so, and you can export there, right, and maybe Mexico take on the role that Colombia is doing and becoming a manufacturing hub for the Canadians because it’s cheaper to grow here, right. And the energy costs are cheaper and set that up. But again, I think it’s still years from now. It’s been passed, but the mechanical and the actual the operational framework, I think it’s the long way to go. And this is my two cents on it. Right? I haven’t been involved in, in, in in in any way. So, but that’s my view from 1000 feet up.

 

Jonathan Bench  25:34 

Eduardo, those are some really great insights from you being on the ground in Mexico, I think it makes great sense. You are at heart a banker. And so even though you’re an investment banker, you you think quite a bit in terms of risk. And also like you You talked about, you need a certain amount of stability, to invest. And that’s what I’m what I’m hearing you explain, you know, the pros and cons of the Mexican market, I hear through your banker lens, which makes perfect sense to me. So you had mentioned that you lately in Alta, financial, you have focused on the US market, you’ve got investors from Mexico, from Canada, but you’re primarily investing into the US market. So can you tell us a little bit more about alpha financial, and about your ethos when you’re investing and about some of the opportunities that you’re seeing in the market?

 

Eduardo Diaz Rivera  26:19 

Sure. So it’s Alta Real Estate Fund. Alta  financial is, it’s another marketplace, which me and my partners are working on, but so Alta the real estate Fund, which was founded back in? Well, we did a pilot fund first back in 2000, late 2017, early 18. And we we decided that the best way to invest in, in the cannabis industry in the US, which I always like to compare it to an emerging economy within a developed economy in the end nasan back in 2014, with Colorado, Washington, so it’s pretty young. So there’s still a lot of growth and therefore lack of maybe legal framework. And now because of how it’s structured in the US, every single state with cannabis is legalized medicinal recreationally. There’s different laws that you need to abide to and different rules you need to follow. So one way we decided to invest after you know, receiving many opportunities, say, Come and invest in my growing business, and this dispensary, etc, was how do we preserve capital if things go wrong? One way was real estate. In the end, as I said, this is an emerging industry within this developed market, which is the US economy. And one way if things go wrong if regulations change because or if legalization takes, you know, another 10 years, or if for whatever reason, they decided to go back and rollback whatever legalization has been in place in x state. Real estate is always there. So we decided that cannabis operators right now have a lack of capital. And that’s the main issue they have right now because of the Federal being federally legal in the US. So one way to help them this I helped him with a real estate capex needs in order to, to to operate. So we decided to put in place a pilot investment. We acquired two properties with a partner slash tenant in California. And after a year of seeing that it actually worked out that the structured made sense and there was more opportunities, we decided to I decided to found out what is out the real estate fund now. It was put in place back in mid 2019. And the thesis is helping cannabis operators with their real estate needs via either acquiring the real estate for them, or a majority of the real estate and then leasing it to them at market rates, market rates within the cannabis industry, of course, is the under long term lease agreements, or we can do financing against the wheel. And the key issue is preserving again, the thesis is if things go wrong, how do I if I invest there $100 How do I make sure that my $100 are still worth $100? on there are very downside case scenario. And that’s how we come up with all the A structures that we do we have more than 11 transactions in our portfolio now.

 

And then obviously on top of that, we have very attractive returns which derived from the way the cannabis industry in the US is set up, there’s a federal illegality, and there’s it’s legal in some states. So then we have this arbitrage with which again, it’s unfortunate for the operators in a way because there’s a lack of capital and a lack of financing on their end. But it’s opportunistic for people who are willing to I guess, take the risk, understand market and capitalize on this potential. Return. So it’s real estate driven 100%, it’s us focused, we can invest in any state, as long as you know, cannabis is medicinally recreationally legal. And we have certain, you know, restrictions, like, for example, we don’t do any agro cultivation, we don’t take on development risk. There are certain states that, you know, are not as attractive as others. But so we have a very strict thesis. And then, on a case by case basis, we try and see if there’s a structure to be created. And if there is we do the work. And I guess that’s it for now, the fund, as I said, it’s since the pilot for which we acquired two properties back in 1718. And since its inception in May 2019, we have 11 transactions in our portfolio, we are a little bit over $25 million. And we’re in the process of raising another 20. And the idea is to capitalize on this opportunity, because our view is that the industry eventually will open up and become like any other industry, the US market becomes market right? Now there’s very few arbitrages. But the size of the market is just incredible. So that’s what we’re very focused on, hopefully continue growing, respecting our our investment thesis. And again, everything is, you know, capital preservation or on their downside case scenario,

 

Fred Rocafort  31:21 

Eduardo, it’s been a wonderful conversation. And it’s actually very timely, as we’re dealing quite a bit with Mexico, cannabis related issues that matter of fact, tomorrow, Jonathan, and I will be will be participating in an event where we’ll be addressing some of these general issues. So the timing has been been perfect for us. before we let you go, I’d like to ask you, if you have any recommendations for our listeners, something you’ve read recently, something you’ve watched, or even something less conventional, like place you visited that do you think is worth sharing with others?

 

Eduardo Diaz Rivera  31:53 

Sure, I would say there’s a very interesting book called Skin in the game. And it’s quite, how do you say it? It’s, it’s not a novel of any sorts? And it’s a little bit ironic, is that how you said, but it gives you a quick insight into what does it mean to have skin in the game in everything you do in life? I think it’s a good philosophy. So whenever you’re going to do something, either on the personal level or the professional level, you need to think if you’re adding skinning to that transaction and therefore adding value or just you’re just the middleman, right. It’s a very interesting read. It’s it’s a, it was written by Nassim Nicholas Taleb, who’s one of the you know, modern day philosophers. So that’s, that’s a good one. And there’s also I mean, to a lot of, you know, historical novels. And there’s one the the enigma of Spinoza. Spinoza, was a philosopher back in the 1500s, which was banned by the Jewish community at the time, and and also the Catholic Church. So his take on religion, especially at that time is quite, how do you say revolutionary in a sense, and these novel is pretty good. And it also has, you know, a lot of good points. It’s an interesting read, but it also has very good points into, into questioning those types of stuff. So I guess in terms of reading, those two are pretty interesting places to visit. I mean, come down to Mexico, we have fantastic beaches and fantastic food. So it’s a great place to travel. And people are super friendly.

 

Fred Rocafort  33:29 

Well thank you for that recommendation, Eduardo. Jonathan, what about you?

 

Jonathan Bench  33:32 

I’ve spent about three hours watching the World Trade Center, Utah’s China paradox series. And by the time this episode airs, the fourth and final part of this series will be on YouTube. So it’d be available. If you look at World Trade Center, Utah, on YouTube. And this is great. It’s been a really great primer for anybody who doesn’t know what’s going on in China, but also for those of us who think about China in really serious ways. We have very high and very thorough analysis of, of China from a geopolitical standpoint, from a policy standpoint, and from a practical business standpoint. And so it’s been a lot of fun, just for me as a as a professional to engage with this. You know, we had ambassadors, former legislators at the federal level, national security professional. So it’s been a very interesting series, and I highly recommend it to anyone who wants a digestible way to to dig into China, but also to really be able to understand what the issues are right now that are facing the US and how we’re likely to be dealing with them from a public policy standpoint, but also from an individual business standpoint. Fred, what about you?

 

Fred Rocafort  34:38 

I’d like to endorse your recommendation. I haven’t been able to follow live as I would have liked to but I did see the parts of the of the first panel and it was great. So so I have to I have to endorse that. But in terms of my own recommendation, I read an article the other day sort of stumbled upon it on Twitter and the title is is self explanatory. Indonesia, Spain, Mark 500 years since circumnavigation by Miguel and elcano. For those of you who don’t know, what kinda was, I believe, Miguel is number two. And because of the fact that he was Spanish, as opposed to Miguel on who was Portuguese, the Spanish have a special place in their heart for him. Also, I think there’s also this small detail that Miguel didn’t actually finish the journey. But anyway, it was an interesting article sort of highlights the lesser known perhaps historical links that exist, there’s so much nuance to history. And and of course, it’s sometimes too much to process. So we sometimes limit ourselves to the really big events, right. And then sometimes, we study some particular events a little bit a little bit more, but for anyone who has any any interest in Asia, Indonesia, the era of conquest and exploration, this this is a good an enjoyable piece was published in the Jakarta post. We’ll be sharing the link with everyone as we as we do, and I believe I could be wrong about this, but I believe that the author is the ambassador to Spanish ambassador to Indonesia, Jose, Maria, Madras, Mansell, take a look. And with that, like to thank our guest once more for joining us, and tune in next week for another exciting episode of Global Law and Business.

 

Jonathan Bench  36:27 

We hope you enjoyed this week’s episode, we look forward to connecting with you on social media to continue discussing developments in global law and business. This podcast was produced by Harris Sliwoski with executive producer Madeline Williams music composed by Stephen Schmid. Tune in next week for another episode. We’ll see you then.

 

Transcribed by https://otter.ai